In episode 30 of The Real Talk, Raquel Ramirez welcomes Robert Sepulveda, founder of Explr, as they discuss the importance of men's coaching, emotional intelligence, and finding balance in life and relationships.
Tune in to discover how men navigate through fears of not being good enough and the significance of community support.
TIMESTAMPS
[00:02:53] Men's Circles and Empowerment Workshops.
[00:07:24] Masculine and Feminine Energy.
[00:08:55] Expressing Feelings in Relationships.
[00:13:13] Perception and Reality Differences.
[00:16:39] Purpose and Life Fulfillment.
[00:27:28] Masculinity in Different Professions.
[00:31:24] Finding Internal Balance in Life.
[00:33:31] The Fear of Not Being Good Enough.
[00:39:33] Feeling Appreciated in Relationships.
[00:41:22] Love Languages and Relationships.
[00:45:23] Modes of Support.
[00:49:02] Community and Longevity.
[00:52:34] Building Progress Over Time.
[00:56:38] Impact of Social Media.
[01:03:43] Generational Research.
[01:08:32] The Distinction Between Family Types.
[01:13:00] Choosing Family Over Birth Family.
In this episode, Raquel Ramirez and Robert Sepulveda discuss the importance of fully expressing emotions in relationships and the workplace. Robert highlights the fear many men experience of not being good enough or being judged when they show vulnerability. This fear often arises from societal expectations dictating that men should be strong and not display emotions.
Moreover, the episode touched upon the concept of different modes of support, including self-reflection, one-on-one relationships, and community involvement. While self-reflection and one-on-one interactions are valuable, the community aspect adds another layer of support and understanding. Being part of a community allows individuals to feel validated, heard, and supported in a collective setting.
QUOTES
SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS
Raquel Ramirez
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/featured_properties_intl/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/featuredre
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raquel-ramirez/
Robert Sepulveda
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertsepulveda/
WEBSITES:
The Real Talk: https://www.therealtalkpodcast.net/
Featured Properties International: https://msha.ke/featuredre
Explr: https://explr.org/
Weekly Men’s Circle: https://weeklymenscircle.com/
Welcome to The Real Talk. I'm Raquel Ramirez, your host and real estate professional here to bring you insightful conversations, expert advice, and powerful stories about what really goes on in life, love, divorce, and real estate. Are you ready? Let's get real. Hello, hello, and welcome to The Real Talk podcast. How are you doing today?
I'm pretty good. Excited to be here.
I'm glad to hear that. I know usually when I welcome people on the show, it's kind of odd because, you know, you kind of do the pregame talk and then you jump into a very serious conversation. So sometimes it could be a little off-putting. But for the listeners out today, I am speaking to Robert Sepulveda. And he's actually a very interesting professional. And I'm going to let you talk a little bit more about what it is that you do. But I'm going to just be upfront, clear and honest from the get go that I've actually never met with you before. So I know very little about what you do. Actually, I know very little about you. And I hope that we can discover that together on this podcast. So Without further ado, I'm going to go ahead and open up the floor to you and to tell us who you are, what you do and what we might be getting into today.
Yeah, definitely. So thank you for having me on the show. I'm really excited to be here. So my name is Robert Sepulveda. I'm the founder of Explore. And we kind of do two separate things within Explore. We work with entrepreneurs doing financial services, fractional CFO, part-time CFO, kind of help organize their finances behind the scenes so that the entrepreneur kind of does what they have to do with the business, and we outsource all their financial needs. But with a small select group of their entrepreneurs, we actually do leadership and coaching, leadership and business coaching for them. And then with that, it kind of sped off into a passion project into men's coaching specifically around men, because a lot of entrepreneurs that I worked with were men. And it was just got more into like the personal side more than the business side. And kind of like the the the philosophy of that, the business that you're able to create is a direct reflection of the person that you are. You always focus more on the individual person and how to build them as better people so that they could be better business leaders in their chosen profession. So we host weekly men's circles, we host annual retreats, and on top of the financial services that we do for business owners.
That is very interesting. And I'll go ahead and interject here and just say, obviously, I'm a woman, so I am privy to women's circles and women's clubs and empowerment workshops and all those kinds of things. But because of that, obviously, I feel that there might be a lack on the male side. So I think that's pretty fascinating. You can tell me maybe there are a dime a dozen. I don't really know that. But I feel that what you do is actually very unique.
Yes, it is. It's getting a little bit better movement over the last decade or so. But historically, yes, it's only been for women circles, women oriented, more being in your fields about like what emotional intelligence and just understanding. And in the men's world, there's always never been the space to talk about emotions or to feel emotions. And now and now it's it's becoming more of a not necessarily a trend, but more of the spaces are being opened up for men to be themselves fully and express themselves fully.
All right. So I guess the question begs, why do you think that is? Why do you think historically there has been fewer, I guess, clubs or less space for men to talk about things that are probably taboo?
I think it comes down to like men have always been told to man up and not cry and to just get up and keep moving and keep moving forward, be the providers of their family. And so a lot of pressure lands on their shoulders. But they don't really have the outlet to kind of speak about things. And it's just never been the opportunity to speak about things in previous years or families and things like that.
I'm going to actually this is great. This is my God. I've got so much to say, but I was having this conversation with someone the other day, somebody that I consider like a real man's man, but who's also very much in tune with his emotional side. He has a pretty high emotional IQ. And I mentioned something to him that I think is going to be taken probably the really wrong way, but I'm going to say it anyway, which is, you would think, right, that as emotional creatures that we are, women, I think, tend to be emotional creatures. We're the nurturers, right? we would or should open up that space for our spouses, our boyfriends, our fiances, our spouses, whatever, to be able to release whatever it is that they've been repressing or building up over time or because of, you know, the challenges that they run into in the real world, you know, trying to provide for the families, you would think that we would be more receptive, that we would be more welcoming of that conversation. And yet what I hear a lot is that that's not happening. So men, I think are not feeling as comfortable or as safe. Let's use the word safe, right? As safe to come to their partners and say, I've got this, that and the other. And so then, and then on the flip side, some of us feel like, hello, we're here. Let's talk about this. I want you to talk to me like you would anyone, because I'm here to support you, to love you and to, you know, give you supportive feedback. But there is a lot that gets lost in translation there.
Yeah, I think part of it is like a lot of boys talking about when they're younger, they're very sensitive and they're told they're too sensitive and not to talk about their emotions and to kind of keep it all in. And that kind of transcends into their adulthood. They don't learn how to express themselves. They don't know how to identify feelings. Are they feeling angry or are they feeling excited or are they feeling scared? Like how do you put words to those sensations that arise in the body? So a lot of the times men just don't know how to speak about it. So then when they try to speak about it with their spouses, it becomes like this this muddy water. Mm hmm. becomes very uncomfortable to be in. And then the women trying to be nurturing, sometimes try to solve the problem too quickly as well too. And they feel uncomfortable and it just becomes a whole uncomfortable conversation because nobody really knows how to talk about or hold the space in order to kind of express themselves fully. So it becomes like that dynamic between the masculine and the feminine energy. And I think some of the things that we do with the men is help them navigate that space in order to become more whole. Like it's kind of two sides to the same coin. And just like a partnership, you have the man and the woman. It's a partnership together because they're two sides of the same coin. It's two individual people coming together. But I think both the men and women have masculine and feminine traits or masculine and feminine energy within them. And that's where it kind of finds that imbalance. between manly man being too manly and not being in touch with the emotion or being too feminine and not enough structure in their life. And it just becomes an imbalance. So when the imbalance meets imbalance, it becomes unstable. And that's where just people get uncomfortable in those type of conversations.
Yeah, I can see that. And I think for the most part, we live in a society that doesn't like being in uncomfortable spaces. We're constantly let's let's be honest, we're constantly trying to find balance. We're constantly trying to, you know, find joy and create happiness. And we're not no one's ever looking to do the opposite. So when that does present itself, then typically we run in the other direction. But then that opens up another door, which is laden with problems, right? Because when you leave things unaddressed, then those things become bigger monsters over time. And I wonder then, like, for example, in the space that you're creating for these gentlemen, is what kind of Let me think, what kind of issues are you running into more with the guys? Like, are you seeing that it's more emotional in nature? Do they feel entirely unsupported? Do they feel like they just can't identify what those emotions might be or those feelings might be? Or is it a combination?
It's a combination of everything. But if I had to like distill it down to one thing, it's learning how to express themselves fully. So when they're with their spouse, trying to express themselves or in the business setting, trying to express their desires, whether it's where there's business partnerships or intimate partnerships, it comes down to expression and learning how to express yourself to the point that the other person receives you fully and understands where you're coming from is a very difficult process to do. Most people don't know how to communicate very effectively. and it comes down to communication and relationship building. It's just how to create a fruitful relationship, whether it's at home or in the business setting to create win-win situations, because we're all kind of want to head in the same direction. We want the same outcomes, but we just express it in different ways. And the way that we express it differently sometimes create conflict. A lot of people like turn it into a personal thing. It's like when you're when some person is expressing their feelings, they make it about themselves and how they feel. because this other person is expressing their feelings. So it becomes more of a projection instead of just listening and holding space for each other. And that's where it becomes a little tricky.
Yeah, that's a tough one because it's impossible. Let me not know. Let me not say impossible. I actually never speak in absolutes, but it's very difficult, let's say, to be in a typical setting and not see from your perspective. I mean, you're looking out from your inner world, right? which is why people often look in the same direction and see two entirely different things, right? And the reason that it becomes so difficult is because you obviously have your own experiences, your own hangups, your own traumas, your own stresses. The list is very, very long. And so you are, that all creates, right, your perspective, your lens with which you look into the world and receive that information. So it's very difficult. You have to be willing to, learn more about these processes, willing to be aware and wanting to be better each and every day in order for you to kind of take a step back and say, okay, I'm really going to try today to not see it the way that I've seen it for the last 20, 30, 40 years. And that, you know, then be able to do that, which is why it's so important to go to therapy or places like this, because the person that you're speaking to is a total neutral person. They really don't care. They're totally removed from your situation. They don't necessarily have a personal relationship with you. So, you know, they can be neutral. But that's interesting that you would say that. I do want to make a comment. A comment to follow that, which is I've seen it, obviously, with relationship that I had with other people, personal, professional, whatever. on the men's side, right, because we're talking mostly about men here, that they tend to see themselves as rational creatures, right, which I can understand, right, because they're more practical in nature than we are as women. But they fail to realize that anger, for instance, is an emotion. They think that anger is not an emotion, that emotions are only love and joy and sadness and blah, blah, blah. That's not true. Emotional spectrum runs way from one side of the other to the next. And so I wonder then when they're trying to identify what are these emotions, what are their triggers and what are their reactions if they finally come to that realization that sometimes anger when expressed is also an emotion.
Yeah. And with men specifically, rage is a huge part of it. Of course. Deeper than anger. But before we get into that, one thing that you touched on earlier about awareness, I think that's super important. It's not something that degrades over quickly because awareness is kind of at the basis of all of this. Like the more aware you are of and we talk about it not in absolutes but um the difference between perspective reality and actual reality because each of us have a perspective and that our perception of reality kind of shapes our view of reality and we see things for that what it is and that perception is is is shifted based on our experiences growing up the families that we were born into right experiences that we have with our friends social circles in school and work as an adult and when you're off on your own so all that perception is kind of shifted or or kind of how do you say, shaped based on their experiences. Right. But that doesn't necessarily make it absolutely true. Right. And the bigger the awareness you have of the absolute truth of reality, then you're able to see things from like a third person perspective as to like what's actually happening in the moment and be able to make more logical, more grounded decisions based on your actions in that moment to moment. So understanding that difference is truly important. And then once you have the greater awareness of what's actually happening, then you're able to create space. And do you actually keep living life in habitual habits based on that perspective, based on your experiences? Do you keep showing up the way you show up? Because you've been in this experience before you acted this way before. So you act this way now, like when something triggers you, you get angry. or when everything's fine, you're just in monotone kind of a state. So rage is a huge part with men, because I mean, granted, just being honest, like that's what we kind of seen just over generations and generations of generations of men. The only emotions that they express is anger. Yeah. And rage. So it comes down to also back to our perspective reality, like what have we seen modeled year after year, generation after generation? And it's not necessarily right or wrong. It's just based on the awareness. And each generation has more and more awareness. So it's like, what what can we change now in order to change our habits or change our lineage or the habits of our lineage? in order to act in a different way and be more in tune with what happens within our body, the sensation that arises. And I keep saying sensations because like sensations are perceived differently from one person to the next. Somebody might have sweaty palms or heartbeat, a sweaty back, and one person might perceive it as anxiousness and the other person might perceive it as excitement. So it really depends on your frame of mind and how you perceive those sensations that creates a label of that emotion.
Interesting. Yeah. Labeling is a, it's a big deal too. You're right. Because you could get it absolutely wrong. And it's like, it's like going to the doctor and getting the wrong diagnosis and taking medication for something that you don't have.
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, that could be a problem. That could be a problem. So in your line of work, do you see more men who are trying to level up, let's say in the business world, or do you see men who are struggling more in their personal lives?
It's funny. I mean, it usually comes back to business. It always comes back to business, but business not in the sense of like making more money or creating a business per se. The business is always about the work. What does the work look like? And what does that mean for the individual person? And it usually ties to their life purpose. Like what do they wake up every day to do? And it's always a connection from the individual man with their life purpose of creating something outside of themselves. Well, like we could get really deep in this philosophical thought point that women are able to create life within themselves versus men create life outside of themselves.
Interesting. And so literally like we can literally children. So we have right. Our purpose exists within us. And men are trying to find purpose outside of that.
Exactly. So a lot of them focus on their business, this entity that transcends time, transcends generations that could live beyond themselves to like put their purpose into that entity to live beyond what their physical bodies can live.
Interesting. I mean, that is certainly a derivative of what we consider being a provider and being a nurturer. I mean, we nurture from the inside out. We nurture human beings as women and men are looking to the exterior to find means to provide for the family. That's very interesting. Interesting. Now, well, I guess, yeah, that opens up, you know, different topics of conversation. Like for instance, there are women like me who never had children, who didn't want children. And so it's actually something that's come up for me recently, which is, you know, in addition to what I do and how I provide for my home, you know, like what I do to make my home a nurturing space, right, for my family is, I don't really have legacy and I don't know that I have found my purpose because my purpose hasn't been to bear children. At least that's not how I've identified. And so, yeah, so I'm actually looking outside of myself in this case, because I'm also too old to bear children, I think. And I'm looking outside of that also to find purpose. And I know it's something that we, a lot of people talk about, I think for the most part, both men and women are always looking to make sure that they have some fulfillment in life that goes deeper than just doing the daily, you know, job or whatever's at hand. But for men, I can see how, like after you've described it the way that you did, I can see how that could add a very, a big stressor, let's say, something difficult and big to contend with, because it's not as simple as saying, I'm gonna go and make money. As you said, it's not necessarily about making dollars and cents. It's much deeper than that. And as women, actually, and I'll be very honest, maybe I can't speak for everyone, but I would say for the vast majority of women don't see that. We don't know that because, and not to shift the blame now on the guys, but the guys don't communicate that. I've had a lot of very deep conversations. I love deep conversations. I love to learn and I love to get to know people as in as deep level as they'll let me. And I have never actually heard anybody tell me what you just told me.
And I think it's also, I mean, we're talking about generalization between men and women, but it comes back to the thought process that both men and women have both the masculine and feminine energies within them. So they're able to find that purpose outside of themselves or their purpose within themselves as well, too. Like a lot of men, that's why they kind of get into meditation. and go sit in a cave for years on end to find that purpose within themselves. I think it's a two-sided thing that it's not just one-sided that you only find your purpose outside of yourself or you only find your purpose inside of yourself. I think it's a balance between the two. It's an alignment between your internal purpose and then how does that translate externally with what you create on the outside. So it kind of goes hand in hand in both of them. for both men and women, because like, yes, I work more with men, but in reality, all of the principles and all of the thought processes apply just to human beings in general.
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Absolutely. I can see that, which is why I think I well, I've taken the liberty to draw the distinction, but there are similarities there, of course, between men and women. And I love that you brought that up too, because most people don't realize that we do have, I don't want to call it But well, I guess there is a duality there, right? That we both have, when I say both, I mean, both men and women, we do have feminine and masculine energies and that we flow through them. Yes, and some people might err more to one side than the other, but for the most part, that again, brings us back to this whole idea of balance, right? That we flow through life going from one to the other, looking, I guess, for balance in our lives without even realizing it. It's not something we turn on and off necessarily on cue, Um, sometimes we might have to dig deep, you know, if we feel that something is, is a need and we need to, I guess, pony up more masculine energy in my case, or pony up more energy, but for the most part, that stuff happens on automatic.
Yeah. Yeah. And like with men, like out in the business world, it can get chaotic out there and it can be like war, like, and you're going out to battle and kind of. call your warrior spirit per se, to like go there and cut through the bullshit and see what really matters and have that one pointed focus of what your goal is, where you're heading to. And no matter what obstacle cuts in your way, you're going to cut through it and get through it and get over it and get through the challenges and get through that uncomfortableness in order to achieve your goals. So I think everybody needs that to some degree in their life in order to live the most fulfilling life.
You just said something there that had triggered a thought, which is to live a more fulfilling life. You have to want to do that. You have to want a more fulfilling life. You have to want to change your belief systems because I know obviously, you know, let's say older men from different generations who are very close to those beliefs. They're deeply rooted beliefs about how men should be. And they don't believe in this quote unquote frou-frou, you know, new age mentality that you can let go of those things and experience a fulfilling life by being close, you know, or increasing your emotional IQ, let's say, they flat out deny that, they flat out reject that. And that's not something that they're willing to do. So if you want to, I guess, experience a more fulfilling life, then I think, yeah, I think you have to, you have to want it, is I guess my point. You have to want to do that, because that just doesn't happen because somebody is telling you something and you decide that, yeah, you're going to give it a try. You have to want to experience that.
Yeah, I think the wanting like comes down to like free will in terms of your life being a process of faith or destiny. But I believe that there is free will and you're able to change your life however you choose to change it. And back to like that generation or a generation of men that had a perspective of their reality or what masculinity is. And that said, on that, on those thoughts and belief systems, it's very limited or limiting on to what your perception is opening yourself up to or what the reality is of the true nature of reality. Because a lot of these principles that we talk about aren't new age. No. Things that are being rediscovered from ancient days. Right. Like even like kinghood, like kings like need to nurture their their kingdom and all the people within it in order for it to be prosperous. And you need to be in tune with what's going on within your family nucleus, within your partnership, within within the people that you serve. Yeah. In order to be able to create win-win situations or win-win-win situations, as opposed to a zero sum game that somebody has to lose in order for you to win. So I think it's opening yourself up to a larger possibility of reality. and that's what's kind of happening now and I always think about accelerating human consciousness like how do we become more conscious how do we become more aware of what's actually happening around us and then incorporating all of that within not just knowledge but within wisdom and the difference between knowledge and wisdom is like knowledge you can read it all day on the internet through books but if you don't actually apply it to your life it just stays as knowledge and wisdom is the embodiment of knowledge like how do you actually implement what you learn and like quote-unquote follow you on advice that you give other people and actually follow through with it in your everyday life So it's like, once you start embodying the knowledge, then you see your life changing, the relationships changing, the outcomes changing, your reality changing, and your business changing, your relationship changing, the way you communicate changes, pretty much everything starts changing in your life, where you start seeing the changes in the positive light, as opposed to negative changes happening in your life. Because changes are always happening constantly.
Yeah, whether we like it or not, some people resist it, but for the most part, you have to change to some degree. And you said something that I was thinking of going back to, yeah, which is that I always used to say that wisdom comes through experience, which is to your point that unless you experience something good or bad, whether you failed to apply what you learned or not, you inevitably learn something, which is one of my favorite, it alludes to one of my favorite quotes, which is, I never lose, I either win or I learn. Because you can lose if you want. You may not get your way, you may not win the race or whatever have you, but if you're willing to learn something, because there's always something to learn from your situations, then you don't really lose, do you? Because you can see learning as an opportunity to grow, to become more aware, to change. And so I love that. That's one of my favorite quotes. In fact, I think I still have it on one of my Instagram accounts. I know I have three. I think it's on my personal account, which is where it says that I never lose. I either win or I learn. Now, going back to a little bit, something you said that also reminded me, men have very, well, I don't want to generalize where just men or women, right? But let's talk about, since we're, again, we're on the topic of men. There are men who have very masculine driven jobs, right? Like let's say law enforcement for one. And I say law enforcement because my husband is law enforcement. You have law enforcement, obviously you have soldiers. Those are men that you would typically think of as very masculine men, men who are probably not in tune with their emotional side, men who constantly have to show a side of strength and a side of, maybe stubbornness to some degree, because, you know, they're there to be steadfast and to be strong and to face adversity like no one else would. And then you have the artists, the painters, the people who are on the creative side who probably err more to their emotional or their, say, their female energy because, you know, they're creators, they are fluid and they think of art and music and, you know, they don't need to face adversity. They're constantly creating something beautiful. And I wonder, right, as an outsider, I wonder how the men who are in the more masculine driven, I call it careers, how they struggle versus the men who are on the creative side. Because I feel like the men on the creative side are constantly expressing, that's what they do. They're constantly expressing and releasing, whether it's sadness or joy, but they're releasing it in some platform versus the men who are not, those are the ones who are really stuck. trying not to purposely trying not to feel something.
Yeah, I think it comes down to like your chosen profession and the roles that we play in the lives, our lives, like those those men and more traditional male roles, they're always kind of considered the protectors, always constantly protecting others, protecting their family, protecting society. And then those habits kind of build up internally for themselves and protecting themselves, as well as they protect their heart, they build walls around their heart guard, and they're very guarded. They're always guarding because they're always on guard. That's what kind of not necessarily trick themselves, but that's what they become used to because they're always on guard every single day of their career. It just comes down to habits and unlearning those habits as to when do you have to be on guard, when do you have to be a protector, or do you always have to be in that state of mind? Right. And knowing when to shut off, when it is more or more valid to be more of a protector or more recipient, like you have to learn how to give and take life in order to have a more balanced or harmonious life. Because like also like I talk a lot about structure and men that have a lot of structure, it's important to have structure in your life. But some men have so much structure, they become so rigid.
Yeah.
unmovable and they become stubborn, or you could describe them as stubborn, but they're not very fluid. I mean, I talk about the concept of loosely held structure. So kind of like a building, talk about real estate, building a building, it kind of sways a little bit in the air. So it's strong, it's grounded, it has a strong foundation, it's able to rise up very high, but it still has a flexibility that kind of moves with the wind. The same thing with the bridge, it's grounded, it's held steady, but it still kind of moves in a flexible manner. So it's a combination of having both the sturdiness and groundedness and structure, but being free flowing and malleable. in a way that you're able to embrace the fullness of life. Because just one extreme or the other one, if you're too structured, then the building is going to fall over either way. And if it's too flexible, it's going to sway and it's going to collapse either way. So it's not about being one extreme or the other, it's about finding that internal balance with how do you feel more comfortable being Because even in the law enforcement, you have to have some flexibility to have some empathy to understand the human nature behind it. Like, is this person bad or is it trustworthy or not? You have to be able to read people and understand people on a much more deeper level. And if you're too structured and too guarded, you just picture everybody as the bad guy. And that doesn't help either. And on the other extreme of the artist and the free-flowing, if you're too much on that side, there's no structure. You never actually create anything. You never sell any of your art and you're always a starving artist. So there's always the two extremes that aren't good for either side of society. And you have to find that balance within the two with whatever roles you choose to be in your life.
That's true. That's true. Concept of a starving artist. If you had to say, now again, we're generalizing because everybody's different, but if you had to say, that men have some fears of their own, because women have some general fears too. What would you say is probably the most common fear or fears that men face when it comes to releasing some of this emotional baggage, let's say, or not doing it? Why do you think that they hold back so much? In addition to obviously the belief system that they're supposed to be a certain way. But that aside, I think that is not even something they think about anymore. Do you think that men carry some fears?
Yeah, I think the biggest fear is the fear of not being good enough, being looked down on, that they're lesser than because they have these emotions, which are all natural. Right. Yeah. And just like ultimately not being good enough. And like, if they're, if they do express themselves fully, are they going to be judged? Are they going to be looked at differently? Are they going to be criticized because of it? And yeah, it comes back to not being good enough. And like being in a relationship, if I express myself fully in the relationship, will my partner look down on me? Will she not see me as a leader anymore? Will she see me good enough as a man to stay in the relationship with? There's a lot of like self-doubt and thoughts that come along with that.
Oh, wow. That's interesting because then of course I start to think of, and again, I take responsibility for that too, where women tend to be pretty critical, right? You didn't do this, you didn't do that. Now, of course, a lot of times there is a miscommunication there because what we're trying to say is something entirely different, right? We're not necessarily pissed that you left the shoes, let's say, in the front door. We're pissed that you didn't recognize that we've gone through days and days of constant cleaning up after you. And here we are, you don't see us, you know, and you come home and you drop off your shoes. So obviously, we can go really deep into that rabbit hole. But the point is that, yeah, we tend to come across as very critical. And so then when the guys are coming home or coming to us to say something, or they happen to show some vulnerability, and then we're like, Oh, and by the way, You didn't do this, not any other. I could see, yeah, how that would sort of be like an extra like what's that? What's the word like adding insult to injury, which is the fact that you feel that you're not good enough, when in reality, we don't necessarily feel that way. As women, we don't necessarily feel that way. If we felt you weren't good enough, we wouldn't be here.
But we always have those self doubts that this could end at any moment.
Yes.
Because in reality, it can end at any moment, whether it's life or relationship or a business, like anything could end at any point in time. That's right. Yeah. And then with the shoes aspect, it comes down to like daily habits or daily structure.
Yes.
Like what do you do on a daily basis? When you get home, what do you do with your clothes on a daily basis? And building those habits and And the structure, not just for yourself, but your chosen family, because now you're living in a community with your husband and wife or with kids. And that structure that comes into play really takes a toll on the flow of life. And this lack of structure then more often than not, the women kind of look down on the man that they're not man enough, that they're not pulling their weight, or they're not doing their thing, that the woman always has to pick up after them because they can't do it for themselves, or they're always cleaning the kitchen because a man can't do it. And it's just like that structure, but then it can be too structured to the OCD level, But they're just constantly cleaning, constantly taking, and then it takes a toll on the woman because there's no flexibility to to kind of just be themselves. So it's a constant balance between the two. That would be me.
I'm guilty as charged. I'm just one of those people. I'm actually, I'm very capable, so I'm constantly moving, I'm constantly doing. I like to feel that I'm being productive. I'm not the type of person to sit in front of the TV. I can't do that. So even on my off days, so to speak, I have to find something to do. And I love taking care of my home. And because I live with a man who also has boys, we still have our two youngest stepchildren, my stepchildren here. Yeah, it feels like a constant, you know, a vicious cycle. And yeah, sometimes I feel, I don't want to use the word taken advantage of, but it's borderline that, you know, and I realized that they don't, especially the kids, when you're teenagers, I remember as a teenage girl, some things that I remember overlooking certain things. And that's that I was always this, I've always been OCD, I've always been clean. I lived in a household of women. So we all took care of everything. So there was never really anything to overlook, so to speak. But teenage boys, I get it. They don't even understand the concept. I don't even know that they see everything in their space. You know what I mean? But still, that doesn't... that doesn't negate the fact that things, you know, all come, let's say, for example, very simple example, I'm sure every woman out there can probably relate to me, which is I'll come and I'll wipe down this table and I'll turn around and I'll go get something. And by the time I'm back, that table's dirty again. I'm like, I just cleaned that. You didn't see that. No, they didn't see that. They didn't see that at all. But then instead of cleaning up after themselves as like a normal daily habit, as you say, They move on because they know it's going to get done somewhere in the back of their mind. I'm sure it's one or two things. Either A, they know it's going to get done or B, they just don't think it's that important. And so then I come again. And guess what I do? I wipe it down like again, because I come back and I I see it and I just I don't even think about it anymore. I just do it. It comes easily and I can do it quickly. But by the third or fourth time, you're like, are you kidding me? And then that starts to build.
And I think also like the lack of appreciation comes to mind.
Yes, that's how we feel.
When when people feel appreciated for what they do and what they contribute there, there's a weight lifted off their shoulder. That is not like an expected service that they're doing, but an appreciation of the person and the way they act and what they do. Yes, it is. It's much more appreciated. And so then the person will feel more inclined to just do it, whether it gets 33 times a day. Yes. Or it's always clean. They don't mind doing it three times a day because they're appreciated for how they show up.
A hundred percent. I know that it's happened to me where in my mind, I will, I will think it. And if I'm home alone, I will say it. I'm not a maid. I'm tired of feeling like I'm a maid because again, it feels like it's expected. On those days where say my significant other says, Hey, thank you. I noticed that you did this and that and the other. I will tear this place up if I need to. I don't care what you want or need me to do. I will do it with a smile on my face. Yeah. 17 times over. And it's exactly what you said. It's that when you feel appreciated, it feels like it's not mandated. It's not an obligation anymore for you to be waiting hand and foot with someone else. It shows that somebody actually sees that you are doing, putting an effort because you love or because you care enough to you know, to make the home warm and cozy and clean and whatever it is. And it's not, and see this, going back to the point that we were making earlier, if and when I do say something about that, let's say, and when I say me, I'm speaking for everybody, then the men feel attacked. I'm never good enough. I did it last week or I did it six months ago. I'm like, are you Kidding me has nothing to do with you not being good enough. It means that you kind of should have done it. That's your responsibility too. We live and breathe here. You ate there or you, you know, slept there or whatever. The least you can do sometimes is help me out. Like, does it mean I think that you're a horrible human being?
Yeah, two resources come to mind as I hear you speak about that. Like the one is on the five love languages. Yes. Oh, of course.
I know. I know mine. I know everybody's.
Yeah. So it's like if you take the quiz for yourself, like those are how you show and and like to be shown appreciation and love. Yes. Acts of service or quality time or physical touch. Yeah. And it's hard to kind of shift that in order to to someone else's acts of the love languages. Because if you want to go and give or receive love in a certain way, but then giving that love to that person, they might not receive it the same way. So it kind of falls on deaf ears.
Yeah, you have to speak their language in order for them to, it's like going to another country. If you want that person to understand what it is that you need, like if you need to find the bathroom or the nearest restaurant, you need to speak in their language for them to understand you. Yeah, it's the same concept. I love the idea of love languages. It's just, I forgot the name of the author right now, but it's, there's so much truth to that. And it lifts, it does a lot of the heavy lifting, let me say, because once you identify what somebody's love language is, it's almost like, Oh my God, we can communicate now. You thought you were speaking the same language, English, Spanish, whatever that is. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, you get to that person. And for those who are listening, if you don't know anything about the five love languages, I'm sure I speak for both of us when I say I highly recommend you read that book. It's a very easy read. and you can easily identify, easily identify what people's love languages are. We're not necessarily one language a hundred percent of the time. We could be 90, 10. We could be actually even a full combination of those. My love language is words of affirmation. I'm almost like 10 out of 10 for words of affirmation. And then I would say it's probably physical touch. And honestly, the last on my list I think would be probably gifts. And my significant other, surprise, surprise, most men I think tend to be high on physical touch. And I recognize the minute I learned about the love languages, I looked at all four of my kids and I thought, oh my God, I recognized all four of theirs instantly, because typically people give what they want to receive, or they speak, so to speak, in the language that they speak in. So you can easily, if you've paid really close attention, you'll easily identify when somebody's love language is physical touch. That's an easy one, because they're constantly putting their hand on you, or they're like high-fiving you, or they're coming to hug you, they have to kiss you, whatever. You know, there's, Quality time, which is when somebody is really craving to spend time with you or they really appreciate when you have time alone. Gifts, it's obvious. People who love to receive, my sister loves gifts. That's her thing. That's her way of showing me she loves me. She always has something for me. What's the other one? Words of affirmation. Yes. And acts of service. Yes. Acts of service. My sister-in-law, I believe is acts of service. She's certainly not words of affirmation or physical touch, which is funny, but yes, she's acts of service. It doesn't matter what you need or when you need it. She's jumping out of her skin to go and fix it or help you or find something or, And that's and those are just simple ways of identifying that. But yeah, when you speak their love language, you're bound to get. You're bound to get deeper, closer and more connected, for sure. Yeah. Do you guys do you talk about that in your retreats?
Um, yeah, we do talk about it. And most of the guys already gone through it, they know it, they understand it. So yeah, most of the guys in our circles, they've done the work or been doing the work for many years, either on their own, one on one, or and then this one's like the third modality in a group setting. Yeah, because it just gets deeper. And you have just more reflection points to kind of see yourself in a in a more clear light.
Yeah, no, you definitely have to be willing for that. That's not something you just decide one day, I'm going to go to a guy's group.
Yeah, that's not. To be honest, I've been talking about this actually last week. Like I think every person needs like three different modes. of support, like one is giving your own support. Like you could do the work, the introspection, the self-awareness, like mirror work, just like self-contemplation, spending time with yourself, realizing who you are, what you stand for, what you want to become and all those things. And then the second mode is a one-on-one relationship. It usually happens within a relationship, within an intimate relationship, because that person becomes the closest with you. So they're able to reflect back who you are to you. It does get triggering a lot. And that's why a lot of relationships become very difficult to manage, because they just become trigger points for each other, because they get to see each other so well, and so clearly. and they want the best for you, so they're pushing you to be a better person, but it's very uncomfortable to be in that state. And that's why that's where one-on-one therapy comes into play, one-on-one coaching comes into play, because you have that one person that wants the best for you to be able to let back to you as to like where are your blind spots in order to become a better person. And the third modality is community. Yeah. I mean, you need to have be around a circle of your peers, people that share certain commonalities with you that could say that they've been they've had similar experiences than you have. They not only know about it on a conceptual basis, but they not on a physical basis. They know what it goes, what it means to start your own business. They know what it means to be a father or mother. They know what it means to lose a parent. So like those physical experiences, like you have to have a circle of people around you that could share in those experiences with you. And that's kind of what these men's groups are about, because at the end of the day, we're all men, we're all living different lives, but we kind of experience the same things in different ways.
Absolutely true. Absolutely true. It's the concept of relatability. It feels so much better when you are able to release something or talk about something with someone who can relate to you. You said something there, for example, like somebody, you know, people typically share in maybe like a business relationship that they've had that, you know, they may be able to connect with or connect over, maybe another gentleman or like, let's say with friends or whatever, you find somebody that has also lost a parent. I remember when I lost my parents that, you know, a lot of people come up to you and they always say, I don't know what to say, I don't know what to say. And that's, obviously that happens a lot, but the most comfort I ever found when I was dealing with that and grieving was in speaking to people that could relate to me. And there's a reason for that, because now you're talking to somebody who can share in your pain, somebody who actually knows. And it may be a little different, you know, it may be that the timing was different, the way that experience evolved was different, but there is some connection there, and you definitely feel better when you talk to somebody who can relate to you, whether they're going through the same issue in their relationship, when they have a terrible relationship with their boss or their peers, same type of issues with their friends, the list goes on. But whenever you meet that person who can sit in that space with you and say, I know what you're going through, and then you kind of swap your idea, that conversation sort of just, evolves very organically because of that versus speaking to somebody who's never been through that. You almost feel like they could judge you or they don't understand you. They have no real feedback to give you. They can't even hold the proper space for you because they can't empathize with you. So yeah, that's important. Community is the thing that I think we often overlook as something that's very necessary. We see it obviously in the religious sector. You know, there's a purpose for people coming together, congregating in a church or at someone's home, in a youth group or something like that. There's a purpose to community. And if you've ever seen, what was the name of that? I think it's a Netflix special called The Blue Zones about the people who live to be centenarians. And one of the three or four pillars of really becoming a centenarian is living in community because there's so much power medicinal power, I would say, in sharing your life and your experiences with other people. So I think that's, that's great, but you're right. You have to be ready for that. That's not something like in your case, where you're talking about taking men from one level to the next or helping them, you know, go through a journey that it would be the very first thing that they do.
Yeah, no, because it gets uncomfortable. It's a safe space, but it's not a space like a safe space in the sense that you're not going to get hurt. Right. You're not going to get physically hurt. Like no one's going to punch you in the face. Like it's sometimes in different groups, it can get to that point in terms of like conflict between men. But in my groups, it's never gotten that far. But like it's not a safe space in terms of like you're not going to be like you're going to be challenged. You're going to get uncomfortable. And kind of like we were talking about before, that uncomfortableness is it kind of sucks to be in that uncomfortable state. But in reality, that uncomfortable state is where growth happens. Absolutely. You need to be uncomfortable in order to see the parts of yourself that you have been avoiding. So it definitely leads toward the uncomfortableness, but not the unsafe space.
Yeah. Yeah. And we talk about that in business too, about how growth happens in the, in past your, you know, past your comfort zone. If you're always going to be in your comfort zone, you're never going to grow. You have to get uncomfortable. You have to get past that zone and be in discomfort in order to, you know, find new ways to, to push yourself and grow.
Yeah. Like what are the traits and characteristics that you need to embody and how do you acquire that knowledge and experiences by getting uncomfortable? If you're not good at public speaking, how do you get better by public speaking? That's right. Yeah. And you always got to be in that uncomfortable state in order to feel comfortable in the uncomfortableness in order to be able to grow and expand.
Yeah. A hundred percent. It's very much like going to the gym. If people say, I want to grow my muscles, but they don't want to be sore. Yeah. Um, I got news for you. That's not going to happen on its own.
I love that you bring up the gym analogy because a lot of times people just feel like, like, what is that one thing I could do in order to solve all my problems? Yeah, it's not a weekend retreat. It's not just one spiritual retreat or one thing that you're going to do that's going to change your life. It's showing up every single day, showing up every single week. Like what is what is the the things that you do on a daily basis, weekly basis, monthly basis, quarterly basis, yearly basis? And this comes back to my finance background, the compound effect in order to create exponential growth over time. Like while you're in it and you don't see the progress, you don't see the changes happening, but when you look back at a year, you look back five years, you see that everything has changed.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I guess nowadays we are, maybe in the prehistoric era, we were more patient about those sorts of things. But I think for generations now, we've been seeing that people thrive on instant gratification. They want to push the staples button you know, and have anything and everything resolved for them. And it's what you said, the more uncomfortable you get, the less you want to do it. But if you really want results, if you really want to get somewhere, if you really want to level up, if you really want to change your body, your mind, whatever, you have to, you have to work at it.
And I think it also comes back to like understanding reality and like how things are actually built. Like when you press that button on the keyboard, what actually happens and the whole infrastructure that's behind it in order to make that one button work. True. Or like building up your body, like what type of movement do you need to do as you focus on the muscles or you focus on the fascias in order to work on the entire system to have a whole healthy body? Or like even building a castle back in the day, like I asked a lot, like how do you build a castle? You build it by one brick at a time. You've got to lay each brick down, and after laying thousands of bricks, then you have a whole castle. But you don't see it in the moment, because every single time, it ends the same way that it begins, laying one brick at a time.
It's true. It's true. And now with how incredibly addicted we are to social media, where it's, it's incredible. I see it. I see it. I, when social media first became a thing, you know, obviously we were, we were already probably adults. I would say you and I, I'm guessing just by, by you're probably around my age. We were already adults. I would say, right. Least young adults when social media came about and I was, I resisted the idea of joining social media because I have an older soul and I can typically see ahead of things. And I figured that this was gonna be a double-edged sword. But at the time, of course, I thought it was worse than it actually is. And so I hired a college student to sign me up on the different accounts because I refused to do it myself. And I knew I needed to do it because everybody was like, if you have a business, you're gonna die. You're just gonna drown. Nobody's gonna see you. Nobody's gonna know who you are. You need to have social media and whatever. So I hired a college student. And I can see, right, as I'm sure everybody else can see, except for the super young generations, how people have changed or how, what's the word, how limited their attention spans have gotten over time with social media. So now we have that to contend with where now it's not even Facebook. Now you have TikTok where it's like a three second video after another three second video after another three second video. So, You have to fight against those things in order to realize that to get something of value, I'm not saying instant gratification to get, you know, to get your mind off of you, maybe sitting in a waiting room for the next hour and scrolling through TikTok, but to actually get something out of life, you're going to have to put in some work and it's not going to happen in an instant. Certainly not three seconds.
Yeah. I think that's why, like in my experience, why meditation is so important. still in the mind. Yeah. Yeah, because we're so surrounded by on a constant basis with so much stimuli. Mm hmm. And we're constantly looking for more and more and more. And the moment that we don't have a stimulization in front of us, we go out seeking it and looking for it more and more and more. And Nolan present with what's going on in the moment without looking for more. is very difficult and uncomfortable for people. Again, back to being comfortable in the uncomfortableness, like that's where the growth is going to happen with the people that are constantly looking for more and more to do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can. I can absolutely understand. I can't speak about studies or anything like this. I haven't looked at them. I don't think I need to look at studies to see how social media has negatively impacted people, causing anxiety, causing social distancing, which is ironic, right? Because we have social media. to be more social. But in reality, it's causing a lot of the younger generations to be socially distant from each other. But I digress. You know, we we we have these things now to help us in that regard. And really, it's causing more I think, and of course it's a very personal opinion of mine, I think it causes more damage than we're willing to give it credit for. And then, so we don't spend time alone, we don't spend time meditating as maybe as often as we'd like, because our minds are racing and doing exactly what you're saying, craving the next hit, the next social media plug.
Yeah.
And I think in terms of social media, I always like to believe that it's a tool and how that tool gets used determines whether it's a positive or negative effect on a person. Because when a lot of positivity comes out of social media, the connection is there. But then when it comes to the point that you're craving it to fill a void, that becomes more of a negative experience than a positive experience. Yeah. I think it's understanding the tools. What is it? How does it impact your life? Where does it fit in your life where it doesn't fit in your life? and making active choices like back to free will, like you choosing when you go on social media if it's just for work purposes, is it for personal disconnection to see some memes, or is it for personal motivation or business motivation. the motivation to kind of aspire to be better? Or is it just that scrolling that you're just scrolling and not consuming anything and just killing time and hours pass and you don't even remember what you actually saw? Yeah, I think the tool is there for every purpose. And I think it's up to individual people to decide how to use that tool for the better for the destruction. And it's a more conscious choice than an unconscious choice. Or hopefully you're making a more conscious choice versus unconscious choice when you're using the different tools that are available to you. Yeah, mostly now with AI coming out, there's just going to be a huge plethora of content out there, just endless content. I mean, right now you have all the world's information at your fingertips. Yeah. But then what do people choose to do with that information? It's just knowledge that's out there. And like back to like knowledge versus wisdom, wisdom. How do you embody that knowledge and make it useful in your life as opposed to destructive in your life?
No, absolutely. And you're, you're, you're a hundred percent on that. It is a tool. Unfortunately, it's a tool that comes with temptation because a hammer is a tool also, and people can use it to build homes, but they could use it to break windows. And it's exactly what you said. Unfortunately, this particular tool comes with a lot of temptation and most people Most people, I would, yeah, the majority of people have a hard time staying away from temptation. I mean, we're faced with temptation on a daily basis. And this is in the grand scheme of temptations is on the lower end, right? You're not necessarily hurting your significant other because you're not cheating on them that, you know, necessarily God knows what you do on social media, but that's just an example. It's technically a quote unquote harmless one. When it comes to the generations, I think it's a tool that we don't necessarily need to give our children, let's say, right? Because they don't know necessarily how to use it. I wouldn't give my kid a hammer at six. Why would I do that? For sure, something's getting broken, for sure. Like 110% something's getting broken. Why would I give him a hammer? why would I give him social media at six years old? Or at 10, let's say, because now we're talking about a different type of tool, right? As adults, and like, we're talking about awareness, and we mentioned that at the beginning of the conversation, we, you know, we have, let's say, the responsibility or the obligation to be aware of certain things, like, you know, when we're crossing the street to look both ways, because we know that there is, what do you call it? We're safeguarding ourselves. We know that there's danger, potential danger there. When it comes to social media, you and I, let's say we're old enough to know what life was like before, we're old enough to weigh the pros and cons, we're old enough to discern that this is a tool in and of itself. And that sometimes, because it happens to me too, we open up the phone and the first thing that pops up is Facebook, because that's what you had opened. And then you saw something you liked and before you know it, you spend 16 minutes scrolling and you're like, oh my God, what did I open my phone for? And it was to actually send an email. or to make a phone call. But you and I are aware of that. We're like, damn it. We got caught in that web again. And so we try next time to make a harder, more conscious decision about opening our phones and doing something with it. But kids, they don't know that. They don't know that. And the younger they are and the more attuned they are to that phone or that whatever, that laptop or the more they get sucked into that and then tell them that it's bad for them.
Yeah, I think it comes down to forming healthy habits. Yeah. Where you show your children and how to spend time or where to get stimulation from. I just go outside and play with the trees or box and they'll play with the box for hours. It's like there's there's different ways of entertaining people. And I think as adults, it's your choice to make the right decisions as to like what is what's a net positive versus a negative. and make those choices actively for your children or the next generation, because you are the adult. You're the one that's more aware and have more consciousness. So you're able to make better decisions up to a certain point. I guess at one point, the kids need to become adults. I think that teenage years is really tricky because they are finding their independence. They do want to make decisions for themselves. But of those early years, you kind of are you're forming those habits, those principles, those, those values within the individual person as to what's important, what's not important, right? They, they ultimately don't always listen to what's said, but they always do what you do. They always about copying you. Be careful what you say. Yeah, lead by example.
Yeah, do as you say, do as you say. I think it's fascinating. I actually didn't even know there was an actual study, but I listened to a lot of educational podcasts and I heard a podcast several, maybe about a year ago already. And I don't remember what her profession was, like her actual title, but she was a doctor of something. And she specialized in, I guess, generational research, which is to say that she, She specialized in researching how generations evolve and what they were exposed to, how that affects them in certain years, and then how the next generation is affected by their, you know, the reaction and solve this cause and effect thing. I was fascinating. And of course she touched on the millennial generation. And so not to get so much into that, but more so to say that I'm curious, because I've seen some very young parents now, I hear them and they talk about how they refuse, flat out, or so they say, will refuse to show their kids the phone and to let them play with the phone and everything early on because they see, they know, they don't want their kids to be glued to that and to be exposed to all these heinous things that sometimes we come across the internet, right? Because it's really unfiltered, let's be honest. No matter how many filters you put on there, you could easily click, I'm 18, and the computer isn't the wiser, you know? So I see that, right? So there's like this era, right, of, I don't even know what the age group would be. Maybe you could tell me, I don't know, from like, I would say the max, maybe mid-20s, mid to late 20s, and a little bit younger who have been, totally consumed by social media and their phones and their laptops and stuff. What that might represent, right, 20, 30 years from now when they are fully grown men and women. I wonder if those men are going to contend with different issues. when they get to be your age and now they're looking for, you know, help and groups like yours. I wonder if the changes or the fears or the, you know what I mean? Like, I wonder if what they're going to be struggling with is going to be different because of it.
I think like everything changes, like the problems change as well, too. But I also believe like there's some universal truth that humans have dealt with or had challenges with for millennials, like despite things changing over time. So, yes, things will change, but at the same time, some things won't change or at least won't change dramatically. Right. I think like the value of self-worth is always there. Like it's even more apparent now with social media because you're constantly comparing yourself to others. Right. That's self-comparison. You also have the millennials that are making a lot of money online and others that are making a lot of money. And it's just like there's the wealth gap as well, too. Yeah. And how do you provide for yourself or for your family? And those are always going to be issues. So there are some universal things that are constantly always a challenge to generations. But yeah, each generation is going to have their own set of problems that are very different than a previous generation. I mean, just like my generation is different than the previous generation and their challenges and issues versus our challenges and issues. It's constantly evolving, constantly changing. But yeah, it's interesting to think about like what What doesn't change over time? That's kind of like a lot of my thought process kind of stays stems from that thought as to like, what is it that we could hold on to? Because we do need something like some groundedness or pillars or something to be able to hold on to while things are constantly chaotic and changing. Yeah. Like what is that groundedness that you kind of hold on to in order to to live back to what we're saying, a more fulfilling life? And I think that's the universal truth for everybody, despite what generation they want or they're in or they're from that want the best lives for themselves, their families, their chosen families and the ones that they were born into, as well as their community. So it's like and then but how that comes about and how that's achieved will change over time as well, too. So it's a constant dynamic of change and adapting to change. And we talk a lot about different mindsets, like a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset versus abundance mindset. And I think a mindset that's malleable and adapts to change is the best mindset to embody because change happens constantly. And how you deal with those changes really determines how you show up and how you act as things change. So when everything nothing's going your way or everything's going your way, how do you show up? How do you react? How do you respond? And I think every generation has to figure out what's the best way for them to adapt to the changes that are happening in real time in their lives.
Yeah. You've made a. a few comments throughout the entire conversation. And I want to point it out only because I think we should probably save that for another episode, because we could probably be here another six hours with this particular topic, which is the distinction between the family you were born into and your chosen family. You've mentioned that a few times, and there is a big difference between the two, and yet they're not mutually exclusive. We'll probably save that for another conversation, because I would really love to touch on that. But I guess before we close, I was just curious if you want to share with everybody your men's group. Is there an age group that is more appropriate or that is accepted, let's say, to start working on yourself? Is there like such thing as too young, too old?
It's interesting, the demographic of men that's been attracted to this, it's been around from 27 to 65.
Oh, really? That old?
Been a big, large range. And we haven't really found any men younger than 27 that are willing or able to commit to the type of work that's needed. Because I think after, like, you turn 21, you finish college, you kind of go out into the real world, kind of in the exploratory mode and just figuring things out. And until you hit like 27 or 28, that's when you realize, like, where my life is heading to. Like, I need to take some more ownership. I don't like the direction. Like, how do I get more control of my own life? And then into your 30s, like 30s is a whole different changing game. in their 40s and 50s, and then guys in their 50s and 60s, they're kind of in their third act. And they're trying to figure out, like, what is the next thing that they're doing? They still see, like, another 20 or 30 years in their life. Like, what are they going to accomplish within that time frame? Who do I need to become versus who I was before? So there's a lot of interesting dynamics that happens in that older age versus the younger age. And then I love the diversity within the groups because there's so much transfer of knowledge between generations. But the older generations teaching the younger generation and while the younger generations teaching the older generation new things. And it's just this constant. It's an interesting dynamic of that transfer of wisdom throughout generations.
I like that. Yeah, I can see that. I really would not have guessed that that goes up to 65, right? Because I'm judging, of course, thinking that a man in his 50s or 60s, just given the generations that they're in, that they'd probably be holding very firm to those deeply rooted beliefs that growth, you know, isn't possible for them or that they can't be vulnerable, you know, that sort of talk. But yeah, I am surprised. I am surprised. Yeah, I would have guessed, you know, 30s and 40s. That's that's a little older. I'm in my 40s already. But I would have guessed, yeah, because of the type of guys that you grew up with and you kind of maintain relationships with, you can tell they're a little bit more open minded about that sort of thing. But yeah, and I can absolutely agree that you and you're in your 20s, man. You really don't know anything from anything. Let's be honest.
It's like understanding your life and your impact on it, but you just learn so much more after that. It takes all that part of your life. You're just gaining so much experience.
It's necessary. Yeah, it's a necessary phase. Yeah, it is.
Because those experiences kind of shape your perspective reality. And once you understand that perspective reality, then you're in a position to kind of go to the next step and analyze actual reality beyond just your perception. And it's really interesting the way that this work kind of comes out into play in each individual man's life.
Yeah.
This has been a very interesting conversation. Yeah, this has been very, very cool. It's been different than what I've addressed in the past. I guess I shouldn't have to make the comparison to say that you know, this obviously affects relationships because the podcast is about life, love, divorce, and real estate and how all of that sort of kind of intersects at some point. I don't have to state the obvious because the healthier relationship you're in, better everything is really going to turn out. So I really look forward to having you back because I definitely want to do, I want to explore that concept of the family that you're born into versus the family that you choose, because that's going to be a good one. So I do look forward to that. So if you'll have me again, that'd be great. I'd love to have you back on the show. And until then, I look forward to reconnecting with you and learning a little bit more about what it is that you do.
Yeah. And if any men are interested in learning more, we have www.weeklymenscircle.com.
Weeklymenscircle.com. Men's M-E-N-S. Right. Okay. Weeklymenscircle.com for anybody out there. If you want to check them out, I highly encourage you to do so and, uh, and join community. Yes. Thank you.
Pleasure being here.
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